You’ll hear from two team members at Washington University in St. Louis Division of Biology & Biomedical Sciences -- Andrew Richards, Director of Admissions & Recruitment and Kyla Evans, Recruitment & Communications Coordinator.
You'll hear them discuss:
[00:00:00] Host: You're listening to filling seats, the state of enrollment, marketing, and higher ed. Hosted by StudentBridge. In this podcast. You'll learn, what's working to grow shape and sustain enrollment. At colleges and universities directly for marketers thought leaders and ed tech innovators, because anyone can design a brochure, but not anyone can fill seats.
[00:00:30] Host: Welcome to episode 18 of filling seats. In this episode, you'll hear from two team members at Washington university in St. Louis. Division of biology and biomedical sciences. Andrew Richards is the director of admissions and recruitment. And Kyla Evans is the recruitment and communications coordinator.
[00:00:49] Host: You'll hear them discuss how they compete against other nationally known institutions, how they utilize a combination of mass. Mass marketing and personal outreach to bring in their class. And their take on increasing access for stem fields let's meet andrew first then kylamy background is, in higher education is entirely experiential, meaning that I did not train, to, be an administrator in higher education. I am not a scientist. Even though the Roy and Diana Vagelos division of biology and biomedical , scientists, trains, PhD scientists.
[00:01:25] I am not a scientist. My actual background, is in, performing in liberal arts, both undergraduate and a graduate degree, but eventually needed to make a change in trajectory or a little bit more lifestyle stability. And, as my, an old boss of mine always says,the place you'll find the most, MFA in liberal arts graduates is in higher education administration.
[00:01:53] Andrew Richards: So I followed that path. I've been here with Washington university in the division going on 25 years now. I started,Figuratively in the mail room here with the division, as a temp position and, almost 25 years later find myself, at the D directorial level, overseeing a number of different, areas within the division.
[00:02:14] Host: what about you?
[00:02:16] actually a very similar story. I'm also not a scientist, nor was I trained for higher education. My background is actually, in communications and specifically graphic design and visual communications. I've been a graphic designer officially since I was 17. And I am very much older than that now.
[00:02:33] Kyla Evans: So it's been a long time, but what I've, enjoyed is communications allows you to transfer your skills from one industry to another. So this for me has just been, let's see what higher education is about. And I really enjoy the industry. It's a chance to hone those skills and communication, not just like visually, but also verbally.
[00:02:51] Kyla Evans: So I get to, talk to people like, whereas oftentimes I only am really working with creating visual things for them. So this has been an interesting and fun experie.
[00:03:00] Host: Kyla, why don't you tell me a little bit about the department and the school? How many programs you have?
[00:03:06] Kyla Evans: So we are the Royal Diana Vagelos division of biology and biomedical sciences at Washington university in St. Louis. It is a mouthful name, but we represent 13, PhD programs across the Biosciences ranging from plant and microbial sciences to neurosciences. Cell biology. So we attract students who are very passionate about research science and about, bettering the world through the work that they do in the lab.
[00:03:29] the division will actually be celebrating our 50th anniversary next year. so that's very exciting and we are looking to, continue to increase our. Range and importance and, reach among other, students at undergraduate institutions that are interested in pursuing a research degree
[00:03:45] Host: Andrew, tell me a little bit about some of the areas that you oversee. And then also, what are the enrollment goals for the division? are y'all looking to grow, maintain, attract a different type of student.
[00:03:57] Andrew Richards: so I'm participating in this podcast in my position, director of admissions and recruiting. and Kyla. Is in our recruiting arm, if you will area she's the coordinator of marketing and recruitment for the division. And then I oversee recruitment, but a couple of other, I also oversee, faculty membership.
[00:04:17] I'm also a director of our summer, undergraduate research program. I also have a part and parcel of data, reporting it, information systems and alumni affairs. there's a lot of different areas that, that I oversee, and have varying staff members that work with me, in different areas.
[00:04:37] Andrew Richards: And Kyla works, works with me, in the recruitment, and marketing arena. Goals? actually, that's an interesting question in that we all have, at the behest of the Dean of the medical school, we are moving forward, with an expansion process, at his behest and his, support I should add, on an expansion.
[00:04:59] for. Fair number of years, we were holding at around 80, somewhere between 80 and 90 entering students across our well, at that time we've been across, 11 programs. We've, added two new programs recently to bring our total 13. and,we have now increased or expanded our, entering class size, target size to a hundred which happens incredibly rarely, I will tell you in the admissions process, hit our target on the nose. last year, that happens very rarely. We usually either go over or, go or come in under, I do know that there is, a further, push or, or eventual, more expansion to come hopeful. Depending upon funding,outcomes and issues. But, it's not an even, I should say a split of 13 programs divided by 120 entering students. we have some programs that are, larger than others. some programs that ones I mentioned are just, newly created or smaller. So varying programs have varying, target sizes, each year.
[00:06:01] Andrew Richards: But that is our intended.
[00:06:03] Host: . Kyla, would you tell me a little bit about, what kind of student are you looking for, or what's of some of that messaging. That you're using to recruit the right students, because my assumption would be that many students who get a degree in biology, kinesiology, something like that are gonna go off to apply to medical school PA school, So tell me about the student that you're looking for and how you identify them and recruit them.
[00:06:32] typically a student that's interested in us is, has been interested in doing research science for a very long time. So by the time that they're actually talking to us, it's probably been years of them actually taking the time to do the research, getting the lab experience like working as a research assistant in whatever particular scientific field they're interested in.
[00:06:51] Kyla Evans: So by the time they come to. They are extremely excited and passionate about what they're interested in studying. So typically that's what I look for in a student or the ones that when I'm at a recruiting fair or speaking to them online, the ones that come right up to you and go, not just, what can you tell me about your institution, but I've been looking into it.
[00:07:08] Kyla Evans: And I'm really curious about this program. And it sounds really cool and is the environment like this and what about that? And they, they tend to ask, they've done their homework, they've done their research and they tend to. more pointed questions as opposed to just a blanket.
[00:07:20] Kyla Evans: Tell me about your institution sort of thing. I also personally like to find students that, Maybe aren't necessarily thinking that they have a way forward, even though this is something that they would like to do, maybe they feel like, oh,I've got the experience, we've got the background that, can I afford it?
[00:07:35] Kyla Evans: Is it a, is it a good program for me to be, and does it make sense, culturally, et cetera. And so those students to me are particularly like, Good ones to get in there because I feel like it, our program opens up a world to them that they didn't necessarily think they had access to. and by being able to present that to them, and have that combined with their own innate curiosity and interest in what they're wanting to study.
[00:07:59] I find that we typically get a really great mix, where the institution meets the needs of the students, that they actually may not even realize that they were looking for.
[00:08:08] Host: So would you say that you are using more kind of personal one to one tactics versus mass outreach and mass marketing? Or what are your top ways that you're recruiting these students?
[00:08:25] actually, I find that you have to do a hybrid approach, because for us, especially, we're rather specialized. and so students that are interested in us are looking for a very specific program, but they're also looking for that one on one interaction, because they're gonna spend so much time here and it's important that they know that this is an institution and a division that will actually support.
[00:08:46] Kyla Evans: Their whole person and not just the person working in the lab. So what I find works best, like I said, is a hybrid mix. So I like to work one on one with prospective students. If they email me, I'm always very personable. Hey, I'm happy to help you. What can we do? But also making sure that we're getting that messaging out to the, the larger world through social media and participating in virtual recruiting and in person recruiting.
[00:09:10] Kyla Evans: So that, we're reaching a broader audience than we might. If we only tried to target those students who are like, say pre-med tracks or biology tracks, not the pre-med students would be interested in us anyway, but, you know,Andrew, what does the competition look like? How many other, types of schools have programs like this and, what's the competitive advantage that y'all have.
[00:09:33] Andrew Richards: well, the competition is large. every. well known research Institute, collegiate Institute that you can think of has programs that are similar to ours. Yale, Harvard, Emory duke, Michigan, Stanford. I can go on and on and on and on. if they play D one sports , they have a research program, for PhD trainees to very similar to ours.
[00:09:55] but, there,it's even within, a certain arena of, institutions that have similar programs. There is a collegiality among us. there is a national association,of, called NA, which is the national association of graduate admissions professionals and, which covers all graduate education, not just the.
[00:10:12] Andrew Richards: Sciences. but a number of years ago, some of, us who were on the recruiting trail, met each other at different, venues, just started talking and sharing information and tips and tricks. And that eventually grew into a sub chapter of NA gap that we call bio gap. And this is, institutions, that have, bioscience programs, training programs, very similar to our.
[00:10:31] or, adjacent to ours. and we, are a sub chapter organization and we share, so while there's competition, and while when we get together, there's some of like, oh, whatever happened to, Joe, so andSo, I got him. Oh, you got him? Oh, you almost thought we had him, Or her,but it's, it, there is a camaraderie among,our group at least.
[00:10:52] and I think it's true, among, even, co colleagues are not necessarily in specifically in our group, that we know that like our students, we, uh, want to. Move science forward. We want to help society move forward from a scientific standpoint to better itself, emotionally health wise and educationally.
[00:11:10] Andrew Richards: And yes, while we certainly would like to have maybe better numbers or got this certain student and that certain student, we know that that student is going to an institution and they're going to pursue their PhD. And that in and of itself is That we should, celebrate, be proud of and support because that student will hopefully advance our scientific knowledge, as we move forward.
[00:11:31] it's healthy, but it does work, back and forth.
[00:11:34] Host: How do you,pitch yourself against those other schools?
[00:11:37] one of the hallmark structures of our division is that we are interdisciplinary.
[00:11:41] and while we have 13 distinct, programs, if you will, they are, they co-mingle can co-mingle with courses. and really the programs are meant to give structure. To the entering class, as far as their courses are concerned and their educational training, but, in pursuit of their research, their thesis research, that they will be pursuing to, be awarded the PhD degree.
[00:12:05] Andrew Richards: Our students can work with any faculty member throughout the entire division, and we have over 600 plus faculty members. And so that allows students that enter our program, to really pursue their research. Goals and interests, and not be pigeonholed into only choosing from X number of labs that happen to be centered, directly involved in this certain program because cutting edge research and scientific discovery happens at the crossroads of disciplines.
[00:12:39] the exciting science takes place is where you find,for an example,geneticists and biochemists and microbiologists all working on something like COVID or Zika. It is not prime. Just a microbiology question. but it takes village of scientists coming at a problem, especially a disease state like that, from different angles.
[00:13:05] Andrew Richards: And so,our students have the, possibility and the options to really pursue their interest in, in, in their niche and their, uh, scientific research arena.scientific research arena. I think that's one thing that makes us different. I think the other, another thing that makes us different is the, collaborative.
[00:13:22] Andrew Richards: Nature of what the division fosters a because of this, structure that we have again, to go back to the just previous example, when you have students from different programs focused in the same lab on a disease state, then it becomes a collaborative nature as well. and so that begets more collaboration across program lines.
[00:13:45] Andrew Richards: Across,laboratories, and even, outside of the university to collaborate, uh, with other, scientists around the country or around the globe for that matter. And so I think those are two of the hallmarks, that represent our program.
[00:13:57] Kyla, tell me a little bit about which channels are most effective. digitally speaking, I would say. Social media does a lot. most of most people find us through Twitter or Facebook. And so we have multiple accounts across, different, arenas. So that's a great way to do that mass market reach because the students that are interested in programs like ours are typically are already following similar schools.
[00:14:22] Kyla Evans: And if we can pop up and be tagging other people and talking to different departments and. Around the country, then they will find us that way as well. So that's a huge draw. I would say the other one is again, taking that more personal T and when we're usually you'd be like, oh, don't send out like mass emails to people, but actually it works because we have such a, we have much, a much smaller pool of students that typically are.
[00:14:44] Host: With us in our field or in our database, because they're already interested in what we were doing. So reinforcing that, Hey, we care about you, Sarah, or you Joe, as a personal student, as a whole well-rounded person who we want in our programs, doing it through, email weirdly enough is actually a really great way to reinforce that, we care about you as a person, please come to our institution, so the social that you're doing is mainly organic.
[00:15:11] Kyla Evans: Yes. I find that an organic approach actually works a lot better. People can smell it when you plan something or when you write something that is clearly scripted and, comes straight off of the presses of this is what you're supposed to say. and the way to get people, especially on social media is to have a much more natural feel to it because again, people can tell, so.I find that, there are some tropes and things that I repeat simply because, everybody needs a hashtag, so that's great, but the more that I can make it organic, the more that I can actually talk to people where they are and in language, that makes sense. the better our return rates are, the better our responses are and the more people actually want to engage with us.
[00:15:47] echo what,what Kyla said. I think about, people that we're trying to recruit can, can, smell a canned, campaign, if you will. and they can, and I actually think that has been, that awareness, has been increased, over the past couple, COVID pandemic years with people, doing.
[00:16:04] Andrew Richards: More things online, engaging more in social media, relating to the world through social media, I think more than they were prior to the pandemic, just because, we were indoors, we were cut off, and I, by no way have the answer because a I'm an old guy. And so I don't, that's why I have, that's why we have a staff member who understands Twitter and Facebook okay. To handle these things. but what I find is that the trick is to, can we replicate through a social media outreach, the energy and vibe that we get when we are.
[00:16:42] Andrew Richards: And we'll soon be again on the road, in a hall with a line of five to 15 eager students in front of us having a conversation. But if you can replicate that somehow in a campaign, obviously not verbatim, but if you can get that vibe and feel , I think that's what kind of, is also referring to in this, in making it real, for the students that they can feel that there is a connection, that you are speaking to them and that you are a real person using this media,I think that's the trick it's and you don't always get it, and it's very hard to get,to get that calibrate that correctly.
[00:17:21] Host: . Tell me a little bit more about the events that you're doing and the travel,
[00:17:25] it used to be very common,prior to COVID,that was a lot of the work was getting out,on the road, obviously that, all stopped during the pandemic.
[00:17:36] but, it has begun again. Kyla actually last weekend was in Atlanta,at a bioscience recruiting event, in person talking to people across the table. so those things are happening, and they're happening again. So there are, there are three large national, bioscience conferences that we always attend and we attended them virtually.
[00:17:56] two of them are going back to being in person. this year one is still staying virtual. but we will be getting back on the. for those, and then Kyla and I are also beginning to identify, other smaller, conferences they might be,at schools. some schools are starting to reopen a graduate, an in person, graduate fair, which we used to attend, a lot in Minnesota.
[00:18:20] Andrew Richards: Actually. I just got an email from them. They're doing that. In person. So we'll be,weighing those, those options as to how much we want
[00:18:28] Host: What are some things that y'all struggle with in terms of marketing
[00:18:33] Well, I think really it's keeping it fresh, because the, there are tried and true methods that we're all familiar with, and you can go as far back as like putting ads in the paper and sending out like mailers and things like that. And things that would've been effective at one time no longer are.
[00:18:48] so it's finding ways, new ways that don't feel old and don't again, feel canned. That allow you to really connect with people, across digital boundaries. So I think that has been a challenge, but I would say that's not just a challenge for us. That's a challenge for virtually every institution, especially in the post pandemic world, because we're all still trying to attract.
[00:19:09] Kyla Evans: A certain pool of students. And we're trying to expand our reach beyond just the borders of the United States. So digital marketing, digital communication becomes extraordinarily important in that regard, because at that point, we're trying to reach not just like across distance, but time zones and languages and things like that.
[00:19:25] Kyla Evans: So being able to present a cohesive, consistent. Presence digitally is a vital importance now. not just for our institution, but like I said, for other institutions as well. So I think going forward in the 21st century, that's gonna be really, the challenge is how do we replicate, that same like feeling of having something cool in your hand that you got from, an institution you might not have thought of and make that a digital experience that leads you to want to learn more about that institution.
[00:19:53] I was thinking about, our videos. We have,we embarked on, Expanding our recruitment, through video filming, telling different stories, about seven to eight years ago. and, we've had, some new ones added over time, now I go back and I look at the first one that was like, when we did it was great and we loved it and it got a lot of traction.
[00:20:16] Andrew Richards: we had a lot of data on the people viewing that and how long they viewed it and who. But I look at it and I don't know if it's because, I know it so well. So maybe to someone who doesn't know it, it's still fresh. Because they don't know that, that young man graduated two years ago, but I do so finding that balance too, as well. So do, is it time to invest in a new, in another video that sort of replicates the one we already did, which was a general, this is who we are sort of story. To keep it fresh, that's you know, is that a place to put our money, cuz those are not, inexpensive to do.
[00:20:47] Andrew Richards: So is that a place to put our money or is it somewhere else? the other thing, Kyle and I were just discussing on Tuesday, she brought back a great idea from this trip to Atlanta, about, paper flyers and how, there, maybe there's a place to go that doesn't involve.
[00:21:03] Andrew Richards: Lugging all of this paper and handing out all of this paper and continuing to environmentally use a lot of paper, and printing and so , what are the innovations, or going back to something that, that was an innovation and now it's making a comeback, in terms of, using it, some form digital, advertising that we can sub supplant that with.
[00:21:26] Host: , you've both mentioned the future a little bit. So I'd love to talk about that. obviously we just had the pandemic massively affected all of our lives in so many ways. Is there an anticipation for a higher demand for scientists? all of the undergraduate folks that I talk to, they have the shrinking high school population coming toward them, but do y'all see a growing population coming toward you, what do you see for the future of, this area of graduate students that you recruit crew,
[00:21:59] Andrew Richards: , that's a really good question.
[00:22:01] and I've been thinking about that as well , I hate say it this way, but I think time will tell because having done this for almost 20 years, 15, 20 years.
[00:22:07] Andrew Richards: Now you can chart the rise and fall of graduate, at least bio sciences. And I think you could say graduate may, maybe not, romance languages, things like chem, hard sciences, physical sciences, business school law, you can chart the rise and fall of application numbers, inversely to the. And when the economy was in the tank, a four to seven year paid graduate program was a great place to hang out and have security and gain skills and gain a degree that eventually, you know, you, but when the economy was booming, and and everybody could, Take all of their intellect and go to wall street and, and get a job on wall street, right.
[00:22:52] Andrew Richards: Outta undergrad, they didn't need to go to graduate school. But this what you brought up the shrinking, numbers in the undergraduate students, that's something that at least in my lifetime we haven't seen. And I really don't know. I honestly, I really don't know what that's gonna bring for us in the future.
[00:23:10] will we see contraction? In certain graduate, educational areas, but not others, or will it be,across the board? you hate to say that because of uncertainty with the way the, the climate is going with the way our. issues are going, just in terms of, looking back at the pandemic and listening to all the, expertss say that, this will not be the last one.
[00:23:36] that would argue that maybe we won't see a drop in numbers, at least in the arenas that we,that we train. But, but that's something we'll just have to tap to see, but we have got to widen the pipeline. We have got to find a way, and this is, this has been talked about ever since, as long as I've been doing this for 20 years, I'm sure before that, about increasing the pipeline and increasing the pipeline in terms of widening it to embrace,students that we have not seen in the pipeline unfortunately there's only so much we can do at the graduate level.
[00:24:07] Because that has to start at the undergraduate level to get, but what can we do to help increase that? Because that's, I think that's the way that we made bridge this, possible, shrinkage of, students based on what we're seeing in the undergraduate.
[00:24:20] you may only get the opportunity three to five years from now to start, reaping the benefits of more students who've been given access at the undergraduate level, there's a delay effect to them coming to you. And so there will be a delay effect if there's a shrinkage, If we're seeing the numbers shrink now, then we're not gonna see that until yes, exactly. 3, 4, 6 years from now.
[00:24:43] Kyla Evans: I think the key is going, like he said, widening and opening that pipeline and increasing the diversity of students who are entering steam and stem fields. And like you said, that's something that we can only do so much because honestly, by the time they get to us, they're, they've already been interested in pursuing a scientific career.
[00:25:02] Kyla Evans: At least probably since high school. So really if you're trying to get outreach to students at an early age to try to get more folks, you really almost need to start in like late elementary and middle school to get those kids interested in hard science and physical science and Biosciences. So that throughout high.
[00:25:19] Kyla Evans: School and into their college years, they see that as an opportunity that is open to them and as a road that they can pursue. And one of the things that also is very cool about working at wash U is that we do have students here and peer groups that are interested in doing exactly those things. They are going out to K through 12 schools in the local area.
[00:25:39] Kyla Evans: They are working with high school students who are interested in pursuing scientific careers and getting those kids where they are at an age where they still. Feel like the world is open to them. And I feel like if we can do more of that and encourage our students that are already engaging in that kind of activity that, that will maybe not solve the issue, but it certainly will help shore us up and present ourselves as a, an institution that serves the needs of communities that otherwise might go overlooked.
[00:26:10] Host: . is there an or a tool that you could not live?
[00:26:14] Kyla Evans: for my purposes, I need my Adobe, can't do my job without my Adobe, cuz that's how I create all of my various things. And so without that, I'd be kind of lost.
[00:26:24] uh, during the pandemic, I guess from Kyle, we could honestly say an app that we. Could not do without, would be the app that, Kyla actually created,with, with a third party vendor that we, bought the platform, but created an app. And then we utilized that app, for our interview process that we had to within back in, in the end of 20, 20, 20, 21 had to move from an in person to a virtual interview.
[00:26:49] process in six weeks.
[00:26:52] Host: That's how we conducted business was through this app,Kyla. tell me a little bit about it. Is this a student facing app that they used to interview? Was it used on the backend to evaluate students how was it used?
[00:27:05] Kyla Evans: It was entirely designed to be, an easy student interface, because like Andrew said, we had a very short amount of time to take what would've been a rather expansive visit because during interview season, normally they come to town, we show them a good time. They meet with us, they meet with, their various interview professors and things like that.
[00:27:22] Kyla Evans: And they get this whole immersive, this is what it would be like to go here. Sort of experience. obviously, we need to find a way to kind. Somewhat replicate that and get them, idea of what it would be like to go to school. So the app was crucial in that because we were able to customize it and fit it, to make the student experience at least as close to an in person, one as possible.
[00:27:43] Kyla Evans: So they're able to speak to each other and make networking connections. They're able to research their professors. They're able to look up their schedules. So everything is at, their fingertips within this app. So all they have to do. Is go on it and they, everything else is right there, laid out for them.
[00:27:58] if you could go back and give yourself advice, what would it be? look into doing digital options for things that you might not have considered, that there are.
[00:28:09] Kyla Evans: Better ways to connect with people beyond, what you're used to doing and finding ways to make those personal connections through a digital medium is going to serve you in good stead. Not only will you look like, what's going on. You're also then forging more of a personal connection because the students feel like you get them at that point, because you're not handing them a piece of paper or making them fill out a physical form with an actual ink. Or looking, oh my God.
[00:28:34] Kyla Evans: In a book, a real book with pages and everything. They're like what? It's crazy talk, but stuff like that, where you can find ways to meet people where they are, that's going to serve your institution. because it's going to make you seem or it will make you be more in touch with what is actually going on in the world, around you and at a time.
[00:28:54] Kyla Evans: And the times that we're in so many students feel like the, where they are and the institutions that they're with are disconnected from them in fundamental ways. And this is a way to reestablish that connection.
[00:29:04] Kyla Evans: Uh, the best way to reach me is usually via email at K dot Evans, wol.edu. probably the, the lessons that I've learned in the last year and a half to two years is that. Things are not as necessary and needful as you think they are. And that in terms of a work,realm, and that it is always helpful to breathe. And to just remember, as I tell. When we're facing difficulties, I don't know some marketing campaigns not going the way we wanted to go, or we didn't, I, whatever mistakes, that you make along the way,it's not surgery, it's not life and death.
[00:29:44] Andrew Richards: And I think that sometimes I am guilty of this. And I think that men, people are not just in the recruiting or marketing area, but just in life that stopping and thinking about, you'll work it out. It'll be what it is. The world will not stop turning. and therefore, as I've been trying to practice this more and form, it clears the mind, and then you're able to think about what you need to do.
[00:30:06] Andrew Richards: And instead of just zeroing in on the problem and what has happened and how could I let that happen and cetera, et cetera, cetera, and seriously, that's what I would tell myself, 10 years ago, 15 years. Maybe I wouldn't be this gray, at this point, if I had listened, if I'd been able to tell myself that, folks wanna hear or reach me,it's Richards a at WOL, Washington, university of
[00:30:29] Andrew Richards: St. Louis.
[00:30:30] Host: Thank you so much for interviewing with me today. It was great getting to know both of you.
[00:30:34] Kyla Evans: Oh, thank you for having us. It was great.
[00:30:36] Andrew Richards: yes. Thank you. It was good. Great. Getting to know you as well.
[00:30:41] Host: thank you for listening to the filling seats podcast, hosted by student bridge. If you'd like to connect with this episode's guest. Check out the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review and don't forget to subscribe. For more information about the podcast or to let us know, you'd like to be a guest.
[00:31:01] Host: Visit student bridge.com/podcast. Thanks for listening